As-Salāmu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wabarakathuhu

May the Peace, Mercy and Blessings of God be upon you beautiful people

"Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish." [Qur'an 17:81]

Sunday, 27 July 2008

Allegation that people are killed for leaving Islam

For the attention of non-muslims.

If someone wants to leave Islam, they get killed. YES or NO??

Regarding the apostasy issue, its not as simple as a YES or NO. Its not as black an white as that, regardless of how people may invisage it.

You believe in freedom of expression and free speech an all that, fair dos. People believe in different things. You cant force us to follow what you believe and i cant force you to believe what i believe. We believe in God and feel everything should be done according to his law, which is contained in his final revelation.

This law would be Islamic law, and the issue of apostacy would come under this area. The only way the law regarding apostacy could come into practice is if the individuals concerned are living under an Islamic state. In an Islamic state, people live under the law of the land. Just as we follow English law under her majesty's pleasure in England, and everyone else follows the law of their own country. It would just happen to be that in an Islamic state, the country would have their own laws. Nout wrong with that is their, you wont prevent people from having their own laws in their own countries now would you lad.

Now if someone in an Islamic state wants to leave Islam, they will do. It is literally a personal choice and once they have made their mind up thats the end of it. However In that Islamic if someone openly declares that they are no longer a Muslim and by doing so cause unrest and seek to cause harm to the state, then this person can be dealt with by either being asked to leave the state or by being executed.

When someone enters into Islam they not only devote their personal spiritual self to God, but in the case of the one in the Islamic state they also devote themselves to the political structure laid down by Gods law. When we look at apostacy here, we have to look at it in the correct historical context and with the right conditions. Its not just a matter of YES and NO.

From the western perspective religion has no place to play in the legal system. A person is free to follow a religion or not, this is why to you the idea of someone being executed for leaving their religion seems quite absurd. However, we should keep in mind that when capital punishment was abolished for murder back in 1965, it was still retained for treason and piracy with violence. Infact it was also the legal punishment for setting fire to her majesty's ships all the way up till 1971! Now thats absurd.

This principle of treason still exists today in most countries, where treason is considered to be rebellious against the state such as where state secrets are given to some other country, people are executed. Remember now this is execution for material information.

Now when we look at the Islamic perspective, religion is viewed differently then it is in the west. In Islam, the religion is the state. There is no seperation of powers in that sense, the state an Islam are one. The state is governed by the religious principles, so rebellion against the state is rebellion against the religion. Apostacy in an Islamic state amounts to a rejection of the law and the order of that society and as such it is considered as an act of treason.

As i mentioned, a person who abandons the faith personally and feels they no longer want to live under the law of the land and the system is free to leave and do as they please. Islam does not allow or prescribe that these people should be hunted down like Salman Rushdie and killed simply because they chose to leave Islam. The law of apostacy only really deals with people who within the Islamic state openly reject the principles and laws of the state and those who undermine the social islamic system of the state as a whole.

Yes there is no compulsion of religion within Islam; compulsion in joining Islam. But once someone becomes a Muslim, they are obliged to stick with Islam in that this is a serious commitment. You cant compare being part of a religion with anything else, which is the common mistake people make. Its not like buying a new pair of trainers, or picking somewhere to eat out. The whole point is that you believe this is the true religion of God, and as such this is the purpose to your life - something you are very serious about.

You also have to look at the motives behind the entire law of apostacy in Islam. It was first implemented at the time of the prophet in Medina when opponents of Islam were intentionally joining Islam and then leaving it within days and even hours in order to shake the faith of the Muslims and to undermine the order of law. They were playing with the religion to cause confusion amongst other new muslims and weaker members of society. This law aims to prevent any such tactic being employed within an Islamic state.

The death penalty is for those who co-operate with individuals at war with the Islamic state, or those who gather people to fight against the state. This is the real practical application of the law in Islam. In Islam we dont have inqusition courts set up to track an test peoples different levels of faith. What people do personally is their own choice. The death penalty only becomes an issue in the circumstances i have already mentioned.

Where a person openly challenges the law and order of the state and undermines the social system by apostating in a rebellious and hostile fashion, if they get caught and are brought before court - they are still afforded the opportunity to retract their statement and take it back. If they do retract their statement, they are not executed and are free to go. This just goes to show the level of justice which is afforded by Islam even to people who seek to cause unrest. It also shows the type of people we are dealing with, not your average joe. Joe would simply retract his statement and not get executed, however the one who clearly has intention of causing unrest and is even unwilling to take the opportunity of leniancy and pardon - this is the type of person who will clearly be harmful to the state an thus execution is permissable.

So in short, western civilisations have and will execute its citizens for giving away state secrets - something which is mere material. Even if they beg for forgiveness and repent, they will be punished. Islamic law will not execute people for the same purpose. However they will execute them for something which is far more serious; rebellion against God. May not seem much to you, but if a muslim lives in an Islamic state and makes that choice to be muslim and abide by the law of the state, it is a very serious matter. In Islam, this type of rebellion is far greater then the rebellion against the individual or the state.

It is not for the Islamic state to simply declare someone as an apostate or for people on the street to call for someone to be killed. Their are courts of law where the matter is looked into with all the evidence presented, the individuals have to be questioned and they have the right to defend themselves.

To make it clearer and to answer a question non muslims often ask:

"So you do believe someone should be murdered if they leave your faith?"

NO i dont. I dont believe another human should be murdered because of their religious beliefs. I believe in everything i have written above, and if you need further clarification then please read it again, or message me


Type-1 Civilian said...

What if you're born muslim? You don't get to 'choose' to be muslim...

Leviathon said...

as soon as you are of a certain age you will be aware of right and wrong and will be able to make your own choices. When that happens you are free to follow whatever belief system you like, even if you are born Muslim. The fact that there is not a massive movement of people leaving Islam should be credited to the logic and truth value in Islam itself, rather then the hysteria and hype surrounding the whole apostate issue. Peace

Jp said...

It's the same type of system, Islam doesn't want its forces weakened by people abandoning the religion.

With western states you have to divulge top level information, which is far different than just leaving. If you have access to state secrets in the first place than you must've sworn an oath to protect your country... you're not a typical citizen.

The difference is that within Islam, the age where you get to 'choose' is still very young, and lots of people will choose Islam because they're human: susceptible to indoctrination. Many get into the habits and customs and will not want to be separated from the family or decrease the honor and be shunned.

If you're born and raised in a Western country you're free to move about the world, talk about anything and believe what you want. It's nothing like the apostate laws in Islam...

Leviathon said...

The article shows it is not just simply a case of 'leaving' but far more a complex issue then that. Saying you are killed for leaving is making a strawman of the argument, which is not an accurate reflection.

Your observation is however partially correct, people to get use to the customs and traditions but that does not make them a muslim. Being born in a western country myself, its culture first and religion second - the two are very different things. For arguments sake, lets say a child is brainwashed from a young age. Fact is when they reach sound mind and age, 18 for example - they are going to do what they want, and live how they want - even though they may still be labelled a 'muslim' If they wish to stay in the faith, then rather than putting this down to indoctrination i would suggest it is simply because of the truth value in Islam and logic compared to any other way of life.

lol last time i checked everyone is free to travel, the image you have of muslims is quite puzzling. I know muslims from all over the world who are free to do as they please, compared to the handful of cases you tend to read about in the media where there may be some unfortunate stories of extremism, which in itself would contradict Islam.

The apostate laws are a political mechanism for within the Islamic state, they do not apply outside the Islamic state hence have no bearing on the world as we know it as there is no real Islamic state the follows the authentic teachings of Islam. I would urge everyone to read the article carefully. Peace

Anonymous said...

Islam is evil and it doesn't surprise me that its adherents kill those who want out of it b/c it's an embarrassment to your satanic allah. I bet lots more would willingly run away from Islam, esp. women, if they weren't threatened w/death.

Leviathon said...

It would be better to read the topic and gain something from it rather then churning out the usual monotonous response. It only makes you look foolish. Regarding women leaving the faith, it is quite ironic you say that because in the west the majority of people coming to Islam are actually women, I wonder what sword they are being threatened with?

It didn't take much effort to write your comment, and quite evidently it did not take much intelligence either. Peace.

Anonymous said...

How absurd to compare the choice to leave Islam with an act of treason! May the scientific method save us all!

Anonymous said...

Its a hadith, which is not the word of Allah, and is written by the followers some years afterwards. It contradicts the Quran in every way and should not be accurate.

Surah al-Baqarah, 2:256, Allah explicitly states: Let there be no compulsion in religion.

Anonymous said...

Sigh... 6th century logic. Sure the sale of other religious material is banned in most muslim majority countries. The Shariah itself list restrictions on the people 5oc the Book and rejects every other religion. On what grounds would someone just turning into an adult make a decision? On hearsay or rumours about other religions? Most muslims are ignorant about much of their own scripture let lone understanding others

Anonymous said...

Maybe at the time of the Prophet (saws) this part of the shari'ah had ssense (defending the Umma from hypocrotes and considering that was 1400 years ago in a rude country with rude People. The sorda of God are forever but the human understanding is evolving: this os the Real problem on all the law of God, the comprehension of the Umma should increase and not laying where it was 1400 years ago...